How are these methods in any way ethical?

We have no way of simply adding porcelain to a destroyed tooth. Why not?

Do dentists have even an inkling of intuition as to what they are doing when they drill away enamel (and therefore destroying nerves + proprioception)……..I am beyond baffled that this is the state of affairs of today’s medical system.
I am not trying to be negative but it has been beyond frustrating to try and get my occlusion and curve of spee “normalized”….The destruction happened 12 years ago, and has now been almost 4 years of me trying to restore it.
And this is just for anterior teeth. These are probably the easiest ones to fix. Except, there is no way to repair teeth without first DESTROYING them will a drill, in order to make a cap.
How are these methods in any way ethical? We have no way of simply adding porcelain to a destroyed tooth. Why not?
And if the techinician and dentist make a wrong crown (that you paid for) then you have to find ANOTHER dentist to repair it. They get paid to vandalize you, and keep you trapped within their system.
How difficult is it to add .5 mm to anterior teeth? It should not require brutalizing healthy teeth to do this…but this is the state of affairs currently…we really need to do something about it.
I have read stories on this page of sufferers that have lived with their conditions for 30+ years…..all at the hands of a dentist. How are these people not liable for their actions?
There has to be a non-destructive paradigm shift of dentistry.
How do dentists expect for a patient to fix their own occlusion? They will have to stop whatever plans they’ve had for their life and spent thousands, again perpetuating this system, on Dental tech training so they can get the correct materials and equipment (oven, porcelain, drills, etc)…(I am about to do this) just because someone decided to drill away some mass, or put on headgear, or this or that.


Discussion


Pete Robinson
What alternatives to drilling air abrasion?

JoAnna Mikels
Are u talking about dtr procedure?

JoAnna Mikels
No what?

Pete Robinson

i asked waht are the alternatives to drilling ? i dont know were dtr came into it…sorry little confused

Thelma Louise Davis
I totally agree with your rant …….couldnt have said it better myself. I am hoping in the near future 3D printing has some positive affect on restorative dentistry and tmj splint tx.

Pete Robinson
I’m hoping in the near future that we can have competent dentistry that isn’t for rich ppl.

Diana Roland O’Brien
I am not rich by far…. I am getting treatment, but how I went about it was tough. I don’t regret it.

Amit Alok Pandey
Dr Clayton A. Chan can throw light on Biomemetic pontics. This is a solution.

Mazza L. Marcello
And yet dentists still keep on happily drilling away …. They have no clue that they can destroy people’s life and body in 2 minutes by drilling away dental mass. And.. the models of the mouth that most dentists use (semiadjustable articulator) is childish and insanely wrong.

Pete Robinson
so what the best way to have a tooth fixed?

Mazza L. Marcello
What is the best way to recover the original egg, once it has been broken and scrambled and fried?

Pete Robinson

Well if one has a cracked tooth how would you suggest they go about treating it?

Eva Willer-andersen
repair keeping the same shape

Pete Robinson
but they still have to use a drill

Eva Willer-andersen
yes I think the drilling in the above post is referring to ‘occlusal equlibration’ where several teeth may have tooth surfaces altered with a drill . not cavity drilling

Pete Robinson
ok

Mazza L. Marcello

Inlays and onlays in gold are some of the best options. But, again, we are talking about damage repair.

Pete Robinson
Marcello Leonard Mazza i have got indentations in my temple regions and my bone cheeks are sore and the zygmatic arch is protruded is this cranial distortion and can an osteo help

Jeffrey Brown
Ang RBad – most definitely you might want to see an osteopath doctor.

Jeffrey Brown
Ang RBad- no to the chiro- they are treating people with snap/crackle/pop and people are not rice krispies! Osteopaths are ever so gentle doing their manipulations

Diana Roland O’Brien
Ang RBad – Have you looked into NUCCA or A/O’s they do not crack. Also Cranial Sac’s? I have had wonderful luck with a Cranial Sac…

Diana Roland O’Brien
Give it a shot a lot of people love Cranial Sac work. Quite a few when we discussed it on TMJ a while back.

Pete Robinson

Be careful ANG RBAD before you undertake any different splint tx. I learnt the hard way i have cranial distortions lcaused by me taking bad advice about a splint adjustment which sent me the wrong way…ear pain throat pain and medially displaced discs …so now i am very cautious who i undertake tx with and what splint may help me out of my mess….we panic sometimes when we see indentations and gum recession but think of the bigger picture and don’t panic this can all be fixed …i wish you well i know how hard this is for you with your kids and all.

Mazza L. Marcello
Sounds like cranial distortion. In my experience (I have cranial distortion) osteo can help if you use an upper ALF and a lower splint.

Jill Mitchell
Amen to this post! I’d love to get my nearly 100k back and bill dentists who damaged me

Thelma Louise Davis
me too!

Mazza L. Marcello

And there are still dentists who think that equilibration is a good procedure! !!! It makes me sick.

Mazza L. Marcello
Bjørn Hogstad is one of the equilibrators. I wish dentists like him allowed me to drill there teeth… I would be able to cause Dystonia in his body with 1-2 minutes of drilling.

Pete Robinson

What about dentists who give advice in general on here likes its the truth and people get messed up it.

Jill Mitchell
There’s also a lot of patients on here giving out advice that IMO is incorrect. But hey everyone has their right to their opinion. 🙂
TMD is buyer beware. Proceed at a huge risk

Bjørn Hogstad
Marcello Since you mentioned my name I shall respond. I am sure you would cause dystonia If you drilled on my teeth. First of all you are not a dentist so you have no practical training in the subject. Second the equillibration process has nothing to do with “drilling on teeth” . Thirdly I recommend you reread what I have written on the subject in this group earlier and specially our discussions on many postings
And stop Choosing to misinterpere what I have written . Forthly you need to alter the way you present your material and avoid being personal . This is a forum where the only thing One can do is to on a general note discuss and present information . This is not a fora for treatment planning. You need to respect what people say because you know nothing about their scientific background and skill level and level of competence and experience. As I mentioned earlier I have finished my discussion with you on the subject

Mazza L. Marcello
And that is a perfect example of the rationale and logic and psychology that is behind and fosters mutilation of people’s teeth, body, nervous system, health and life.
Please note that nobody knows exactly how equilibratiin affects the nervous sytem to the point of causing movement disirders. Those who research and experiment ways to restore stability after that damage is done have a lot of respect and fear of it.
Those who mutilate just deny it. They do not have a clue. Just arrogance.
Is there science behind mutilation? The answer is NO.
Also, please note the “you are not a dentists” line… these people have spent 250 k dollars and 20 years learning how to mutilate people based on an insanely and blatantly wrong and childish model (the semi adjustable articulatoe and Centric Relation). They will never admit that “the king is naked”. They have been brainwashed.

Jeffrey Brown
Marcello Leonard Mazza- this is why I say to the patient “your teeth were cut out of the body” years ago and this is why you are paying now. I believe this is a little similar to the DTR you are discussing- grinding teeth down is generally the wrong direction is what I have seen over the years. Granted, it might feel pretty good for a little while, but logically such actions will tend to tip the condyle upward, further into the socket, and that is not correct. I am one of those dentists who spent 200K at dental school then another 200 K at the institute for advanced studies – where I did the computer training that I do not approve of. Now, I have spent 100 K in the past two years to really get a handle on all this and still realize I have more to learn! Whew. It never ends!

Mazza L. Marcello
By the way: Jeffrey Brown is one of the extremely rare EXCELLENT dentists. I admire his mind, practice and human values.

Jill Mitchell
Marchello although I greatly sympathize with your pain (I’ve been severely damaged by dentists myself) you possibly should be careful with calling out dentists on a public forum.
I am in no way supporting treatment that is damaging but it’s not the way to go about this.
Sorry to play devils advocate.

Jeffrey Brown
Marcello Leonard Mazza- thanks for that paid advertisement- just kidding. I am kind of cynical these days because I see so much pain and suffering all the time, and a lot is due to my own profession – it’s a sad thing, but I’m on FB to try and spread the word and hopefully make change….it’s just taking a long time.

Mazza L. Marcello
Jill Banks Thanks for your comments.
The great advantage of NOT being a dentist is that I can be sincere and open. I can criticize dentists who defend perpetrating irreversible damage and traumatic treatments based on phoney models and theories.
Dentists themselves can not criticize one another as openly.
And the criticism that I make is fact and science based. Not personal.

Bjørn Hogstad
What kind of nonsens is this. Of course professional people like dentist can critizise each other. We all are sincer and open . Sorry, but you lack the professional background. You do not know how procedures are preformed since you never have had any clinical experience. But you think you know what it is all about…. just becasue you end up in the present situation is not any proof of anything . Have you even concidered that the dentist that touched your teeth did not have the proper knowledge to preform it correctly. And others migth have the necessary knowledge and expertice. You are in no position to generalized based on your own one time experience.

Diana Roland O’Brien
Wow…. here we go again… Now we are going to toss in costs! I paid this much to go to school, and I paid this much to go to school… That is so irrelevant !!! Come on… What matters is helping people. I don’t care if you spent $250,000 or $25,000,000. What matters is how Patients feel, who goes home at the end of the night knowing they helped one person. You are Dentists, you are supposed to get all the knowledge possible, Correct? YES. Continued Education. Even we as Patients are doing this…
So if you have to learn every method out there, Suck it up butter cup… Learn it…. We are.

Gregory Yount Dmd
Personally, I think it is time to quit talking about how much someone spent on all of their education. I know personally how much it has cost me, but I really don’t care. No one cares, nor should they care. Big deal. So what. All the people on these sites care about is getting themselves better. They could care less whether you spent 30 cents or 300 million. I have seen this filter through many threads on these boards and think it is time to let it go. Respectfully to all., just my opinion.

Eva Willer-andersen
Dentists have to spend a lot of money to learn about the TMJD treatments it would seem maybe that is why there are not so many who can do all this specialized treatment . I find the economics interesting it affects everybody

Jill Mitchell
I find that irrelevant as well. 😕 you can spend the latest powerball winnings on education but if you go in the wrong direction with your thinking and have no skill. Well……….

Eva Willer-andersen
sure there are plenty of those weekend courses I am sure ..
But it would be great to know how much dentists have had to spend to learn all their skills over the years esp with regards to TMJD TX

Diana Roland O’Brien
Why Eva? It’s a lot… in my opinion I think it’s pointless. Counterproductive. How is knowing what a Dentist spends on treatment going to help you on treatment? I have no idea what Dr Y spent, yet it has helped me greatly. I have no idea what past dentists spent and yet those didn’t help. Can you explain?

Eva Willer-andersen
transparency is a good thing

Diana Roland O’Brien
Great answer…..

Pete Robinson
How much is a GNM course 🙂

Pete Robinson
I want value for money

Diana Roland O’Brien
Immaterial … What does the cost of a GNM course have to do with the price of eggs? Let me give you an example… Dental courses anywhere are all over the map for cost… that means squat… It’s what they take from it even if they pass the course. Again I don’t care if your course was from a building that was falling over and cost you $1000 but is approved, or you went through some big college and it cost you your life savings and loans the rest of your life and your parents help equalling $1,000,000. you all walk AWAY WITH THE SAME DEGREE. Either DDS, or DMD. Which mean the same. From there you advance your education (We hope)
I don’t care what a Dentist “thinks” they know. SHOW me. Talk is cheap.
I don’t care how many patients you see a day. If you see 30, to me you are a room flipper. I have been to dentists like this, all about the numbers, more numbers more money. That speaks volumes to me. Where is the level of patient care? Hmmm To me if I were a Dentist, I would see 5 patients a day and make sure they were well taken care of instead of rushing them out the door half crapped job. But that is just me. Must be a heart thing.

Pete Robinson
Will i get my money back if the eggs are off.

Diana Roland O’Brien
Nah… you should sniff them, shake them and maybe toss them before purchase. 😉

Pete Robinson
Clearly never been educated on this:)

Diana Roland O’Brien

Me neither.. I was guessing. Don’t listen to me… ROFLMAO!!!

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