Successfully treated with LVI principals

Worth every Penny

A PREVIOUS TMJd, bruxer with a compressed/collapsed bite and mm splinting. Successfully treated with LVI principals. Look at the symptomology sheets dated 3 months apart. Combined with EMG and Tscan measurements to an idealized, asymptomatic physiologic position. This patient allowed me to share his results because he is so grateful and wanted to give you guys hope. “Worth every Penny”.


Discussion


Holly Alex
That’s amazing! Wish we had you in U.K. we need a miracle, us brits! 🇬🇧

Kate Carpenter
On the T-scan, there is no anterior contact?

John Garza
Ideally, We only want anterior contact at 50% of the bite force. This patient has is no anterior contact until then.

Stacy Dumas
Awesome…how many pennies?

John Garza
Phase 1 $4000-5000 reversible, test drive the new bite position, alleviate all symptoms or don’t go to phase 2 $40-45k. Lab costs to the dentist to do the work is around $15-17k. Don’t do phase 2 if you are not better or at least played with symptom resolution

Lawrence Gottesman
How long did this case take between 1st and 2nd phase?

Lawrence Gottesman
And how long before you went to final restorative?

John Garza
Lawrence Gottesman 2 1/2 months in phase 1 to asymptomatic or Max med benefit. 2 weeks to restore.

Lawrence Gottesman
Thanks again

Stacy Dumas
I’ve already spent that a couple times after neck surgery… So I’m looking into stem cells. How are the testimonies for lasting results… Also, I don’t just call up any dentist before I research. As I’ve again already been to too many. Do you have a link to LVI web page? Thank you

Stacy Dumas
So you’re saying if no relief after 5 k investment you’re done it’s not an option for next phase?

Kate Carpenter
Stacy Dumas, fyi this group is solely LVI dentists, and they do not permit people in there who ask questions or who had a horrible treatment outcome from this approach.

Stacy Dumas
How do I join if not a dentist? I’m just trying to find out about the protocol being discussed here…what’s going to happen for 50k?

Stacy Dumas
What’s different about the method than others are using? Why does it work vs. others etc?

Kate Carpenter
Stacy Dumas i meant its limited to one approach, the approach of LVI dentists. There are prospective patients in the group.

Stacy Dumas
Ok thx

Stacy Dumas
I still find it challenging to get a link to a video or something explaining what they do differently and why it’s so effective vs. other protocols… 😢

Kate Carpenter
it looks to me that the post was mostly cosmetic and took 90 days.

Heather Storch
John Garza why on earth is phase 2 $45k?!?! I have bridges and crowns but they didn’t cost that…Do you only do a full mouth restoration?

John Garza
Heather Storch there are only about 3 labs in the world that are trained to “Reverse engineer” the porcelain to a specific exact occlusal position established in phase 1. Regular labs just make teeth and don’t know how to hit the occlusion perfectly. If they miss the bite by just 1/2mm could be enough to spin the patient back into symptoms and fail the case. As a result, they have to work much harder and they charge triple for this. That’s why the cost to your dentist can be 15-17 thousand. This the expensive fee.

Heather Storch
John Garza Never heard such a thing…do you only do FMR?

John Garza
Heather Storch FMR only- not at all. Half of my phase 2 patients are in Controlled arch Orthodontics (braces). Please don’t think simple braces. These move the teeth into the physiologic position determined in phase 1 and supported by Biopak EMGs.

Heather Storch
John Garza is that price for a FMR? I can’t see most people especially those who have their natural teeth doing a FMR.

John Garza
Heather Storch I have a patient who had Orthodontia but flat teeth from years of grinding or bruxism. After her Ortho her teeth were perfectly straight and looked great, but she had migraines and headaches. She said she had 3 different bites because she had no home or indexing of the teeth (cusps missing). I did phase 1 and stopped the migraines and headaches. Then we did FMR to give her cusps that her teeth used to have (indexing). So, remember the teeth dominate the system. They need to support the joint and muscles in the physiologic position. 👍

John Garza
This is what we have to understand. We can have straight beautiful teeth and not be in the physiologic position (harmony of the joint, muscles and teeth)!! Very important to understand this, even for the doctors. It’s huge

Sunny Virk
John Garza what was the final crown length in posterior teeth?

Heather Storch
John Garza oh believe me I know and sadly I live it.. my teeth/restorations look fine but did I ask to be overclosed and miserable? Not so much 😐

Lawrence Gottesman
They had flat teet in the Pleistocene era and it continues today in the anthropology articles by John Kaidonis, at the University of Adelaide. All loss of tooth substitutes is not causal to headaches. The fact that your patient has multiple bites speaks to joint pathology beyond what you have described. Where is your MRI, fibrosis and joint effusions? You ask the bite to undo inflammatory changes and you don’t discuss etiopathogenesis except as you can superficially describe through biometric devices. You described bruxism in Matt and nobody here saw it. You’re not helping yourself

John Garza
Patients- I’m sorry you have to be exposed to bickering and fighting among doctors. Ethics wise, we are suppose to be giving you the best care we can. It’s an Oath I took when I was in school. I do this for my patients. They are like family to me. This Post is about a patient whom gave me permission to share because if it brings hope to just one of you. It is worth it. This patient is asymptomatic and very happy with his care. He wanted you to know. So, please ignore the docs who chose to be aggressive and sarcastic. I am ashamed for the behavior in these professionals who asked me to take down this post. Just remember, I didn’t post it for them.

Heather Storch
John Garza not sure what that Lawrence Gottesman is saying since I blocked him ages ago but I will tell you his services entail $8k worth of bloodwork as in labs. He is far from a “doctor”.

John Garza
Heather Storch I’m sorry for the patients on here. If I was a patient following this thread, I’d be frustrated with the lack of professionalism. Realize that some docs just want to extract knowledge for free out of others (sometimes by any means). Thank you for seeing through all that. Good on you.

Sunny Virk
John Garza funny you talk about professionalism…all you have to do is just look at your previous threads.

Thelma Louise Davis
why couln’t an orthotic be permanently affixed over teeth? why the need to destroy tooth structure to do crowns which can lead to the need of root canals in some teeth.

John Garza
Good question- Because orthotic will eventually wear out. Poor access for hygiene in the longterm will promote decay. Its really difficult to keep them clean, can’t floss. I dispense a free water flosser but it isn’t sufficient for long term care. The patient wanted to be restored for cosmetic purposes as well. So, he had existing root canals but non-required for this treatment. He is stable, Happy and very pleased. Also, I should mention because this is a TMJ forum, That we recaptured his discs (previously Clicking and popping with mid-reduction) That was a huge success that was nearly immediate after placing his fixed orthotic.

Thelma Louise Davis
John Garza what would be an option or solution if the patient similar to the one above could not afford crowning all teeth? would bonding or veneers have sufficed on some of the teeth?

John Garza
Thelma Louise Davis that’s another great question. I get asked this frequently. No, you can’t just do some of the gears. Like A bad transmission in a car, bad function will just break the new gears. This is the danger of not recognizing physiologic disharmony and advising the patient “Before” treatment. Placing pretty porcelain will lose every time to bad function. Fix the function first and then put in the gears in harmony with the system.

Thelma Louise Davis
John Garza well then is remaining in a removable orthotic an option offered to those who can’t afford the full monty? if not then in a way wouldn’t physiologic dentistry be limited to a certain clientele?

John Garza
Thelma Louise Davis No, the cost and time to reverse all the decades of bad function and accommodation, takes time and effort. About 40 hours of Dr time, about 20 hours of lab time going on behind the scenes that patients do not see. Then add 350 hours of Con Ed and that expense to be able to help. My cost $350k. In the end, it isn’t about $. As all my patients have said it’s “well worth it”. I wish I could guarantee, the best I can do is just charge the phase 1 and prove my results for the patient. The pressure is on me or I tell the patient not to do phase 2. No one should spend that kind of money on a guess. If Phase 1 is done right. The value is there for the patient to chose to go to phase 2. That is the best I can do. What I can guarantee is that I will do my best because it is about the patient. 🤔

Thelma Louise Davis
Isnt remaining in a removable orthotic the same as staying in phase I? Do you have your own lab? or are you referring to the lab fees associated with the 20 hrs the lab charges you? I wonder how many of your patients can handle a 40-45K bill though….especially if they have already paid for previous tx which failed. For younger people just starting out in life certainly that amt is staggering for most of them and for others it becomes prioritizing ones own needs over others ie, food/housing/transportation, family exp, school loan bills, etc.

John Garza
Thelma Louise Davis in many cases, my patients have seen several specialists or were scheduled, or considering oral TMJ surgery for $60-70k. So I actually saved my patients money and surgery that most of the time makes the patient worse by generating scar tissue that decreases the bodies ability to respond to Physiologic care. The plastic (NTI, splints, or orthotics) are orthopedic and cause bony changes that can be permanent in time. So, I don’t sonsider them the phase 2 solution. They wear out and break in time. I use them as tools to correct bad function. Once The patient is better, I replace the plastic by moving the teeth into a harmonious position where the joint and muscles dictate the gears (teeth should be) so orthodontics or porcelain. 👌

McHenry Mac Lee
Thelma Louise Davis I do tons of removable orthotics with the goal of weaning off daytime wear and only but always, wear at night. This doesn’t work for everyone. Another Stage II is an equilibration after total success with

McHenry Mac Lee
Total success with Stage II and that is an occlusal equilibration, using the T Scan but the doc really needs to know how to do this procedure

Sunny Virk
At this point it is not even about LVI/NM/OFP etc., it’s more about a dentist posting a very questionable case where,
1) treatment was provided without a diagnosis.
2) the treatment was too aggressive for the condition, unscientific, irreversible.
3) he failed to provide any imaging what so ever.
4) the dentist doesn’t know what is the difference b/w a sign, a symptom, a diagnosis and yet claims to be a ‘highly trained expert.’
5) he refused to answer valid questions multiple times.
6) the signs on the pre and post symptom sheet vary a lot.
7) who has no sense of professionalism and often times using derogatory remarks and profanities towards others.

Chris Stewart
Read all this, don’t think you should be putting on crowns at all, only 4-5 years down the line if the patient remains the same. Why just not keep him in a fixed orthotic in the mean time?

Lawrence Gottesman
Chris Stewart, the more you bring attention to this old story, the more publicity he gets. Ignore him. This is an old post, old arguments and old news continuing to resurface.

Kate Carpenter
Lawrence Gottesman ironic to post about not posting as your post brought this up on my newsfeed.

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