Had the weirdest experience in my path for treating my tmd

I have read about neural system therapy with procain on Google

Allright so today I had the weirdest expérience in my path for treating my tmd. Went to the acupuncturist – all normal. But she offered to do some injections of something “not toxic” directly in the mouth. Thought it was acupuncture points in the mouth, said OK. Did not all understand cause she said all in german (i am still learning ,living in germany). She went in m’y mouth with a needle injecting what I found to be procain (looked at the bottle when she left) in thé spots of m’y mouth where it hurts like hell because of the muscles. It hurt so much when she did thé injections, like 5 on each side…. A nightmare. Then i found it was an anesthésiant, but wft ?? Why is she doing this ? I am still in pain because of it… Have u ever had that ?i have read about neural système therapy with procain on Google, seems to come from Germany.. But any of you had this ?

Discussion

Clayton A. Chan
It sounds like she was trying to numb (anesthetize) your mouth up with local anesthetic. The anesthetic is typically a shorter acting anesthetic. It doesn’t resolve the source of your muscle/occlusal or TM Joint issue if you have those symptoms. It is only a temporary numb feeling.

Amelie Giraud
Thank you Dr Chan. Yes, i figured it would not help on thé long term. Was OK for an injection that could have heped the tension circle to break Down and allow other treatments with splint too come back to a balance. But not this barbare procedure. Disapponting

Tatiana Gelfand
She wanted to numb the pain so you will think she helped you. It’s like shutting off the light bulb on your car dash board when it says you have no oil or gas.

Sané Lala
unbelievable and without checking if you could be allergic to the anesthetic that’s just insane!

Amelie Giraud
Indeed. Well i guess that dentists also do not test your allergic reaction before injecting you anesthesiant when they treat you.. But still, looks crazy

Sané Lala
Usually dentists make you fill out a questionnaire with health conditions & allergy questions before the first appointment. Can’t remember if this was an obligation in Germany but all I know is that my German dentist at the time is one that has aggravated my existing condition!!

Amelie Giraud
She is not a dentist. Hopefully. And yes usually i do need to fill a questionnaire. Not that time !

Sané Lala
But even non dentist, I fill out a questionnaire when I go for a massage and there’s no injection. Injecting something close to your airway is just dangerous you’d probably not even know about an allergy until you are exposed to it.

Amelie Giraud
Brrr.. They used a emg to check my heart.. Anyway, it’s done and wont be repeated

Sané Lala
Yes it’s a good lesson learned!

Tatiana Gelfand
Good point!

Thelma Louise Davis
its akin to trigger point shots some tmj drs use both externally around the jaws and intra-orally, I had them done at one point with lidocaine and cortisone and YES it hurt like HELL. they say it can help break up a muscle contraction “pattern”.

Amelie Giraud
That’s what I thought too, breaking the muscle contraction pattern. But i really dont feel safe and treated there , plus the tremendous pain… No way

Allison Vanwinkle
I had 10 sessions of acupuncture and nothing is ever injected into the mouth. Doesn’t anesthetic make you sleep for surgery? Do you live in Germany? I would look around and ask about other acupuncture doctors. You don’t have to go back if you are not comfortable and feel like drugs are being put into you without your okay

Thelma Louise Davis
its more of a localized analgesic or numbing agent (like oral gel but injected and much stronger), not an anesthetic to put one out or make them sleepy.

Allison Vanwinkle
ah man too bad I can’t get that to give some temporary relief sounds like it could be helpful

Thelma Louise Davis
the pain of the injections out weighs the benefits – if any – imo. they were tortuous …

Tatiana Gelfand
Maybe it’s the intention. After them you feel you are OK because your usual pain is much less than from injections?

Amelie Giraud
Haha Tatiana Gelfand. Yes, Allison Vanwinkle i do live in Germany (Berlin). This was certainly not acupuncture, I am used to acupuncture, but the doctor presented it as somethinh part of thé acupuncture session.

Tatiana Gelfand
I’d rather look for acupressure. No pain, and better benefits, IMO.

Amelie Giraud
Ah, Never heard. Will look into it

Tatiana Gelfand
It’s also called shiatsu.

Amelie Giraud
ah, then I had it already! They all offer it in Berlin, hard to fin someoe who actually know how to do it…

Julie Vandervelde-Moll
Procaine is just a anesthetic injectable used to temporarily numb an area. Lots of docs try this to give a quick break in the pain cycle it helps some longer than other and in some it makes things a lot worse by irritating the areas where injected

Amelie Giraud
Exactly what I feared.. It has just irrigaged m’y muscles there, i’m still in so much pain where she injected her thing.

Dan Ascroft Baker
I would never accept anything injected without looking into it first. i don’t care if someone’s offering to inject chocolate sauce directly into my mouth. That shit’s not happening without me knowing what the hell it is

Amelie Giraud
Yes when a doctor naturopath tells u its gonna be very gentle ,natural and part of an acupinture process… You – at lEast I – don’t feel like over checking. I felt confident. Made a mistake

Dan Ascroft Baker
Amelie Giraud Sorry, not judging, we all just have to be so careful with all this stuff

Amelie Giraud
I know .. trying to find a balance between being careful and paranoia 😉 did not feel judged or offensed, no worries

Dan Ascroft Baker
Fair enough, but you need to be ‘paranoid’ really. Don’t feel embarrassed about it. I live by a simple rule of… If I haven’t been able to find good independent reassurance about the safety of something, in my own time, and from a number of sources, then it’s not happening. Most things can wait, so don’t feel pressured. Do not let how far you’ve travelled, how much you’ve spent, or anything else, frankly. convince that you should just do it. Even if that one trip ends up feeling wasted, it might save you having to make multiple trips, at ten times the expense, to all sorts of other places in trying to ‘fix’ it! Do not let things be introduced in the moment, and simply palmed off as ‘it’s no big deal / harmless’ – until you’ve been able to independently vet it. people are always told ‘it’s fine’ about all this stuff we get put through. Then when it goes wrong, it’s all just cheap apologies (if that!) and you’re stuck with the consequences. They don’t care, they’ve forgotten about you by the time they’ve seen their next patient and are just going about their life. Meanwhile, you’re stuck with it

Tatiana Gelfand
Amelie Giraud , don’t feel bad and don’t blame yourself. We all had tons of lies and are victims of trusting them. I can’t tell how many irreversible things I let them do to my teeth and gums because they lied about it.

Amelie Giraud
I’ll try not to be paranoid as it tends to become counterproductive.. At least with réversible treatments of course

Dan Ascroft Baker
Amelie Giraud Well maybe not paranoid, but certainly very wary at least. Anything a practitioner does or ‘treatment’ can permanently harm us. We can never undo it, we can never go back to before. It means that we need to do serious homework before accepting anything and just maintain an awareness that even the best and most well meaning can make mistakes on us too. That is where ‘paranoia’ is helpful. Not saying you have to carry it over to other areas of life (don’t have to start questioning whether the waiter has poisoned your drink in a restaurant… lol) but when we’re dealng with treatment here, circumstances that can’t be reveresed and permanent consequences that a selfish individual may carelessly leave us with for life, you really can’t be too careful.

Dan Ascroft Baker
And it really doesn’t have to effect how you interact with practitioners, or mean you have to argue about everything you don’t agree with. It’s more about just maintaining an awarenss in the back of your mind of how you need to cautiously consider what’s being suggested, and to take time to go away and think about things before lettign a practitioner go straight ahead with it

Dan Ascroft Baker
Finding appropriate care and recovering from TMJ issues is a bit like defusing a bomb. it’s not that you have to be paranoid as such, but certainly maintain a very healthy respect for how the whole thing could blow up in your face if you don’t act extrememly carefully or take your eye off a careless practitioner that insists on cutting the wrong colour wire…

Amelie Giraud
Yep I agree with you but I am not a dentist and I can’t just anticipate things LL thé time. For instance, i ami just going out of the dentist , hé offered to grind a temporary crown we just put on an implant. It’s a temporary crown, the aim of it was to be able to “work” on it before going on a définitive one that we will not touch. I let him do because he said they were some major prematurities on it (that were actually disturbing me since I could feel them). He would never grind my real teeth hé is 100% against it so I figured OK lets try it. Now I am in pain – I am always in pain if I change a millimiter in my occlusion, I have a very very high sensititivy to occlusal changes -. If I am paranoid, I’ll stress and be anxious and tell myself “one more mistake, will never be back like before,”… Etc. If I am not, I’ll just suffer until my body adapts and goes back to the normal level of pain… Winning a battle is also about taking risks imo

Dan Ascroft Baker
Yes, you need to take some risks, and the position that most of us have been left in mean we have to take very big risks, but they have to be worthwhile. There’s a danger of being seduced by risk for the sake of it, as if this somehow inherently implies it might work. Sometimes things are just bad risk, and nothing more (even if they’re dressed up as something more by a practitioner). Nearly everything we do now will be a risk, but we have to make sure that includes risk of a good outcome too. Too many things done out there do nothing but risk a bad outcome. I’ve got no problem with a 50/50 procedure, or even a 30/70 (as long as we’re made aware first), but too many are being coerced into 0/100 ‘treatments’, which at best simply might not hurt you, but never had a hope of working. Too many times dentists just give something a go for the sake of it, and then when it goes wrong, it’s not their problem… It will haunt your whole life though. No, you’re not a dentist, none of us are, but circumstance has dictated that we almost need to become one. Is it right that we’re forced to do this? of course not, but it’s just how it is. Our teeth, mouths, bodies have no respect for a dentist’s qualifications, facilities, or titles. It’s only us that are impressed or influenced by that and tricks of rhetoric. They’ll just react (or break) in a mundane way in response to whatever’s done to them. Best of luck

Jules Longley
The first week after I moved to Germany, to a doctor’s clinic and they did some acupuncture on me. Everything was in German (my second language), I had just moved there and my language skills were rusty, plus I was in so much pain it was hard for me to focus on what they were saying. Apparently I consented to some injection (into the crook of my elbow, no less) of something–I never did find out what–that resulted in me sitting in the waiting room afterwards because I was so dizzy I couldn’t get home!

Amelie Giraud
Awful !!